tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post8624731741112758612..comments2024-01-07T18:12:05.881-08:00Comments on Versus CluClu Land: The CompactIroquois Pliskinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14324582950813408440noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-79832041325960168052008-08-03T12:49:00.000-07:002008-08-03T12:49:00.000-07:00You can also think of this in terms of Sartrean fr...You can also think of this in terms of Sartrean freedom. We have complete control over our actions and consequently total responsibility for them. This is especially germane when it comes to our own enjoyment such as the ways we choose to spend our leisure time. Many players may choose games specifically because they provide constraints and within those constraints we have a finite set of options. Enjoyment comes from choosing which course of action to take. Give us a game that is too much of a sandbox and players may feel overwhelmed with freedom. But if they are not having fun they can blame the developers when in truth they should be blaming themselves for not taking the responsibility of finding their own joy in the game (I know I'm guilty of this from my brief stint playing EVE Online).<BR/><BR/>Yet many may turn to games because, whether they enjoy them or not, games keep them from having to face the fact that they live in the ultimate sandbox (real life) and must take responsibility for themselves and their own enjoyment within it.Kyliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05761810797117128305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-72282923516313917402008-08-02T04:53:00.000-07:002008-08-02T04:53:00.000-07:00Rules, no rules. Chaos and Order. Of course! When ...Rules, no rules. Chaos and Order. Of course! When rules and laws exist, there is an ascent to the ideal, and a certain pride at achieving that mastery.<BR/><BR/>What I've gotten out of the "freedom" argument is that: I guess, in a virtual world where there's no guiding laws and principles, there's no value. Nothing means anything. But of course, when there's a goal to achieve (get to that ledge, take out the Senator, etc.) and you're given, although through restrictions, many ways to accomplish this goal, there's value in what choices you personally make.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-66035508137681909122008-08-01T14:09:00.000-07:002008-08-01T14:09:00.000-07:00Iroquois,My personal understanding of modern video...Iroquois,<BR/><BR/>My personal understanding of modern video games' primary strengths drive the post I made. It certainly doesn't encompass many other current, valid forms but instead addresses a particular ideal. I did enjoy being swept along in the lovingly crafted and incredibly dense experience of Call of Duty 4. I don't know if games taking that approach most effectively address what makes video games inherently unique and powerful as a medium (and yes BioShock leans on these techniques heavily; I'm speaking in the realm of theory.)Steve gaynorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01516595172941914708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-31354854220938449302008-08-01T04:32:00.000-07:002008-08-01T04:32:00.000-07:00Platonic mimesis and gamng is where I'm headed on ...Platonic <I>mimesis</I> and gamng is where I'm headed on my own blog, after I tackle immersion pre-Plato, actually.<BR/><BR/>Briefly, the version of <I>mimesis</I> in Republic 10 is the one everyone remembers, because it's the excuse for tossing the poets out, but the earlier version in Republic 3 is the foundation for that, and presents a very different picture, a picture of people turning bad through watching epic and tragic performances in which characters give way to their emotions. It's precisely that power of peformative art that Plato wants to put the strongest possible controls on--then, later, he uses it as a way to bootstrap himself towards the forms. Most importantly, the cave analogy is really all about <I>mimesis</I> and immersion.<BR/><BR/>Later still, at the end of his life, in the <I>Laws</I>, he takes much of it back but still excludes tragedy on the basis that the real <I>mimesis</I> is the constitution of the ideal city--perfect immersion in the laws. Yikes. But cool, of course.<BR/><BR/>Stay tuned! :DAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04685450956270144818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-21404645213586370712008-07-31T21:38:00.000-07:002008-07-31T21:38:00.000-07:00@justin: Hey, that was a good piece, and I think i...@justin: Hey, that was a good piece, and I think it raises just the point I wanted to bring up with Steve (if he's still tuning in). <BR/><BR/>@roger: maybe this isn't the place, but I would be interested to hear some more about how Plato's theory of mimesis plays into this type of agreement I'm talking about. (My Plato is even rustier than my Aristotle, which is saying something.)<BR/><BR/>@Steve: Hey thanks for stopping by, as I said before I really enjoyed your piece. I had a question, too.<BR/><BR/>I want to bring up a point that's also in Justin's article. You use this idea of transport to make a strong argument for games with a focus on emergent gameplay and user-created narratives. But if you look at Justin's post you can see how David Cage and the folks at Quantic dreams make some very linear, shallowly interactive games (this is not a knock on them! Just a statement of fact) with the same set of guiding ideas in mind-- Cage talks about making limitations on player choice that the player would on reflection, endorse. (I know I had his recent interview in Gamasutra on my mind when I read your own post.)<BR/><BR/>I think some players take the attitude: "hey, here's sixty bucks, why don't you come up with a great story for me and I'll help you make it happen. Make sure the stuff you have me do is fun, and it'll be great." Plenty of outstanding games work off an agreement like this one. In this case, the player is making a slightly different bargain with the designer than the one you present. Is this a worse way to approach game design, or just a different one?Iroquois Pliskinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324582950813408440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-9988207157147516532008-07-31T14:45:00.000-07:002008-07-31T14:45:00.000-07:00Thanks for the thoughtful response, Iroquois. The ...Thanks for the thoughtful response, Iroquois. The 'social contract' parallel seems very apt to me, for the same reasons you state: a designer defines the bounds and rules of the space and asks the player to live within them. I like that analogy a lot more than designer as vindictive playwright, wherein the player must conform to the script precisely as dictated, and it punished for stepping out of line.Steve gaynorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01516595172941914708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-71573080611944970002008-07-31T04:54:00.000-07:002008-07-31T04:54:00.000-07:00Iroquois and Justin, I think you're onto something...Iroquois and Justin, I think you're onto something really enormous, I have to say.<BR/><BR/>Here's how it looks from my own perspective: ancient epic provided the Greeks with an interactive world that was uniquely suited for the exploration of ethical philosophy (which Rousseau addressed under the rubric of the Social Contract, obviously) because of precisely the "contract of immersion" (as I would call it, though I like "transport," too) you're looking at. Plato calls it <I>mimesis</I> and gets unhappy about it, because he wants a top-down solution; it's pretty much at that point in his career that he breaks with the ghost of Socrates. Games, as you guys point out, have the same potential; <I>Bioshock</I> is just the rudimentary beginning, as far as I can tell.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04685450956270144818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-42031287947579526072008-07-31T01:44:00.000-07:002008-07-31T01:44:00.000-07:00I touched on a similar topic myself.By consenting ...I touched on a similar topic <A HREF="http://gropingtheelephant.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/gameplay-contract/" REL="nofollow">myself</A>.<BR/><BR/>By consenting to certain restrictions and limitations we provide out actions within them with scope and specificality. Given freedom to do anything each individual action has little absolute value, but in a world where our options are inherently limited the value of an individual choice is dramatically increased.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com