tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post1792469759091104151..comments2024-01-07T18:12:05.881-08:00Comments on Versus CluClu Land: Trash, Art, and the GamesIroquois Pliskinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14324582950813408440noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-40605314781305223592013-10-15T03:05:14.874-07:002013-10-15T03:05:14.874-07:00Very informative, great publish. I wonder why the ...Very informative, great publish. I wonder why the other specialists of this sector don’t realize this. You must continue your article.Clipping Pathhttps://www.clippingpathusa.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-31496658442562624862013-08-31T13:02:05.350-07:002013-08-31T13:02:05.350-07:00This is the perfect blog for anyone who wants to k...This is the perfect blog for anyone who wants to know about this topic. You know so much its almost hard to argue with you (not that I really would want...HaHa). You definitely put a new spin on a subject thats been written about for years. <br />Great stuff, just great! <a href="http://clippingpathsource.com/" rel="nofollow"> clipping path </a><br /><br />clipping pathhttp://clippingpathsource.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-66543809785441181632008-08-01T17:59:00.000-07:002008-08-01T17:59:00.000-07:00Well, yeah, she's right. Perhaps we should not con...Well, yeah, she's right. Perhaps we should not consider ourselves infantile or puerile because we enjoy something almost completely devoid of any kind art/moral/philosophical sense. At the same time, there needs to be a balance. The game spectrum needs to range in between both crowds.<BR/><BR/>I haven't really taken stories or messages or context in games seriously until recently, because that's around the time when those things became prevalent in games. But now that they're here, I take them into consideration.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and Justin above says that work that's unsuccessful defines what we don't like as a culture. Philosophically, this is true. But in reality, it could just mean the company didn't do good publicity. Or the first shipments of software had some terrible bug, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-33657928133302744962008-07-30T19:58:00.000-07:002008-07-30T19:58:00.000-07:00Hi guys, thanks for the generous comments:@roger: ...Hi guys, thanks for the generous comments:<BR/><BR/>@roger: I agree with you that Kael the movies Kael liked the most (like the Godfather) were just good, tout court: you don't have to sacrifice entertainment for complexity, even though we sometimes see it as a zero-sum game. My own guide on this issues is Mr. Edward Kennedy Ellington, who said "there are just two kinds of music: good music and the other kind."<BR/><BR/>@justin: I think you're right that we underrate the amount of skill and artistic craft that go into making mass entertainments; there are plenty of great movies-- your "it's a wonderful life" or your "Wall-E" that are capable of entertaining everyone but are no less artful and worthwhile. There is so much prejudice, self-deception, and poor aesthetic judgment behind the highbrow/lowbrow idea, and as you point out getting past that idea is the first step to a useful cultural criticism. <BR/><BR/>@michael: Like you say, I also find Kael most useful as a provocateur, especially because she has such different ideas about art than I do . I also tend to approach games with the sort of high-art approach she criticizes so I find it challenging to think along with her and figure out what I agree with.<BR/><BR/>I'm also with you that the mainstream AAA game is not in dire need of critical defense these days. It's really the auteur and the games-as-art visionary who need the support of critics (and consumers) today, and the state of games as a medium is not the same state as film in the late 1960s (we should be so lucky!)<BR/><BR/>i also hope that a critic like kael would come along in games, but for a different reason. I do hope a critic with a prominent place in the public imagination came along and presented a strong, extreme view about what constitutes excellence in video games. (Maybe the closest thing we have to this is N'Gai Croal.) I think such a critic would help advance the critical discourse, since having a view out there in the common language of criticism would give us all something fixed to argue about, and this would be a good thing.Iroquois Pliskinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324582950813408440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-9034630421679795382008-07-30T10:55:00.000-07:002008-07-30T10:55:00.000-07:00Great post, Iroquois. Kael, as you say, was clearl...Great post, Iroquois. Kael, as you say, was clearly responding to the auteur-theory critics and directors of her time that were trying to move the cinema in a new direction. Her voice was probably a necessary counterbalance, but one might argue American cinema's creative rebirth in the 70s was more due to those artists than Kael's sensibilities.<BR/><BR/>I personally don't trust Kael about half the time...and the other half I find her brilliant. Sometimes I think she liked to indulge her inner provocateur. And why not? She was so very good at it. ;-)<BR/><BR/>I hope games give rise to a critic like Kael someday. When that happens, it will mean the mainstream popular games are seen as in need of critical defense. At this point, a contrarian personality like Kael would probably be writing about games from the other side of the fence, defending artistry and aesthetic ambition.Michael Abbotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14437378247420941499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-57022538945874611402008-07-30T08:13:00.000-07:002008-07-30T08:13:00.000-07:00Trash is usually considered as such because it pan...Trash is usually considered as such because it panders; it seeks to be no more than entertainment for the mass market.<BR/><BR/>But entertaining the masses is hard; consider all the straight to DVD movies that are trashy but not successful. Or the heavily marketed summer blockbusters or "Best Seller" novels that are equally unsuccessful. The mass is a fickle bunch and the cultural zeitgeist a constantly moving target. There is a power and a talent in being able to entertain millions that I think is greatly overlooked. But even work that is unsuccessful is relevant as it defines what we, as a culture, don’t like.<BR/><BR/>The cultural significance of mass market entertainment is usually overlooked at the time it is created. Only years later when it is it rediscovered and revaluated does it's nature as a key facet of culture become clear.<BR/><BR/>We are defined as much by what we praise as what we vilify. We need trash as much as we need art; we need to appeal to both high and low culture. We need it so we can define the boundaries of contemporary culture, if not for us then for future generations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-91149649409234121572008-07-30T03:52:00.000-07:002008-07-30T03:52:00.000-07:00Looking at the landscape, you're right, obviously-...Looking at the landscape, you're right, obviously--but don't we tend to get what we'll pay for? I guess my own point is that we need to change the conversation about what games are capable of, and that, in turn, will change the market. That's where Barber's analysis starts to kick in, I guess, but I suppose I'd point to graphic novels, which IMHO have so much less expressive potential than games, as an illustration of how a market can develop towards greater aesthetic complexity.<BR/><BR/>I dunno, maybe I just disagree with Pauline Kael. I harbor a strong suspicion that she was being disingenuous about why she liked the trash. My own notion is that she really loved it because it was just good, and complex, the same way <I>Middlemarch</I> is good. She was just lucky enough to find a complex aesthetic experience that was still being marginalized by the establishment, though embraced by the mainstream. Like games, obviously.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the response!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04685450956270144818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-81675089151470477922008-07-29T22:58:00.000-07:002008-07-29T22:58:00.000-07:00Hi Roger,Well, of course subversion can take place...Hi Roger,<BR/><BR/>Well, of course subversion can take place on the shelf along with the paint-by-the-numbers stuff. I just think the economics can disfavor subversion, and of course there's nothing new about that. The history of culture is rife with artists overturning the accepted standards, and I don't think we are at a loss for examples of this in games either. <BR/><BR/>I guess what I was more getting at is that games can be sort of cynical and pandering if they figure how to push our buttons right; it can be profitable to pander to our known tastes rather than thinking of new and gameplay ideas.Iroquois Pliskinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324582950813408440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-20197618827148568972008-07-29T09:52:00.000-07:002008-07-29T09:52:00.000-07:00Nice post, as usual!Out of curiosity, why can't su...Nice post, as usual!<BR/><BR/>Out of curiosity, why can't subversion take place on the BestBuy shelf alongside complicity with the dominant ideology? <BR/><BR/>Perhaps more to the point, wasn't <I>Middlemarch</I> pretty radical in its day? Dorothea has to ruin a heck of a lot of sacred truths to find her epic life, after all.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04685450956270144818noreply@blogger.com