tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post212760744733215452..comments2024-01-07T18:12:05.881-08:00Comments on Versus CluClu Land: Against my Better Judgement, I Discuss Citizen Kane and Maybe ArtIroquois Pliskinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14324582950813408440noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-12717232710128396312015-07-01T17:59:49.029-07:002015-07-01T17:59:49.029-07:00obat gonore atau kemaluan keluar cairan nanah obat...<a href="http://obatherbaldenature.edublogs.org/2015/03/23/obat-gonore-atau-kemaluan-keluar-cairan-nanah/" rel="nofollow">obat gonore atau kemaluan keluar cairan nanah</a> <a href="http://obatherbaldenature.edublogs.org/2015/01/30/obat-cairan-nanah-keluar-dari-alat-kelamin/" rel="nofollow">obat cairan nanah keluar dari alat kelamin</a> <a href="http://obatherbaldenature.edublogs.org/2015/01/30/obat-alat-kelamin-keluar-nanah/" rel="nofollow">obat alat kelamin keluar nanah</a> <a 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You have to get em and put em ...Who wants a stylus. You have to get em and put em away, and you lose em. Yuck. Nobody wants a stylus.<br />write my essayhttp://www.writemyessays.org/write-my-essay/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-41478127768617970242013-07-04T20:43:20.847-07:002013-07-04T20:43:20.847-07:00For you to sleep well at night, the aesthetic, the...For you to sleep well at night, the aesthetic, the quality, has to be carried all the way through. <br />powerpoint 2007 templateshttp://www.pptwizards.com/powerpoint-templates-for-any-office/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-8114907138830296392013-06-27T20:22:39.198-07:002013-06-27T20:22:39.198-07:00That's been one of my mantras - focus and simp...That's been one of my mantras - focus and simplicity. Simple can be harder than complex: You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple. But it's worth it in the end because once you get there, you can move mountains.<br /><a href="http://cainsquotes.com/" rel="nofollow">car insurance in California</a><br />Gujjarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14016645823515164786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-67396988058595021502009-08-30T01:44:27.791-07:002009-08-30T01:44:27.791-07:00Gosh I can't believe I misspelled Andrei Tarko...Gosh I can't believe I misspelled Andrei Tarkovsky's name. How embarrassing. My kingdom for an edit button.Lyndonhttp://digitalkicks.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-24519373659734308452009-08-30T01:22:30.247-07:002009-08-30T01:22:30.247-07:00@Simon Ferrari: Abbas Kiarostami, Hou Hsiao Hsien,...@Simon Ferrari: Abbas Kiarostami, Hou Hsiao Hsien, Tsai Ming-liang, and Andre Tarkofsky would all beg to differ about cinema not producing any formalist movements in the past 35 years. Certainly they're all as mainstream as soviet montage ever was.<br /><br />Fun fact: 90% of people who say they like Citizen Kane have no idea why Citizen Kane is actually an important movie.<br /><br />Hint: André Bazin<br />http://www.horschamp.qc.ca/new_offscreen/bazin_intro.htmlLyndonhttp://digitalkicks.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-80486423954166215382009-07-06T19:08:09.628-07:002009-07-06T19:08:09.628-07:00That brings us to something I've said before: ...That brings us to something I've said before: The Marriage was insulting. This is the sort of thing that makes art a dirty word. It's infuriating that people fell for Humble's schtick and it doesn't merit any consructive criticism. Is anyone here married? What about your parents? Does anyone truly, honestly think that the fragility of a marriage is done justice by Humble's idea of making the game easy to end? Do we experience things through abstract metaphors? I've nothing against the style - all styles are simply a filter for the individual expressing the emotion, but you've got to have actual emotions to express. Try <b>A Woman Under the Influence</b>, which I hesitate to praise in case my abrasive attitude influences your perspective of the film.<br /><br />There's too much to say about all of this, and I don't think a comment on a blog is the right place to say it.<br /><br />@Steven<br />"It seems to me (as I've written elsewhere) that the simple answer to "Are games art?" is: "Yes, but not as we knew it." The point is that whenever a new form is invented, the definition of "art" - which was only ever a post-hoc abstraction to describe the forms already known - has to be stretched to accommodate it. This happened with the novel, opera, cinema, etc etc..."<br /><br />This isn't going to cut it. The fact is that it hasn't happened to games, which have been around for far longer than you and I.Greynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-62336596679640813232009-07-06T19:07:41.262-07:002009-07-06T19:07:41.262-07:00We've got a new medium with new possibilities ...We've got a new medium with new possibilities and a real chance to change things. We can take inspiration from the "right stuff" and instead we harp on about how great Citizen Kane was. It isn't even close to the apex of that medium and it never was. I agree that it's what it represents and not what it is. This:<br />"In fact, Renoir's Rules of the Game is a superior example of this paradigm."<br />is correct. Technical bravado impressed critics, but there was nothing human about it. Strip Kane down, pull apart the meaningless, mechanical cinematography, ignore the aural bridges and you'll find a hammed-up performance that leaves us wanting.<br /><br />Still, as you've implied, it's dishonest to try and figure out which art form we should imitate, but it's equally as cheap to wonder about which techniques we should append to interactive works. It's true that there's a different language spoken by each of the arts and that we should find our own, but it's crucial to note that there's another language spoken by each individual practitioner of that art. James is not like Joyce who is not like Faulkner just as Renoir is not like Tarkovsky who is not like...you understand. <br /><br />I lose faith in these ideas frequently. Perhaps all we really do care about are basic mechanics. The state of film criticism for the past century seems to admit as much. My most cogent appeal would be to ask why we seek something more meaningful than what we have here, with Bioshock and Mario and other structurally sound, often entertaining games. These past 3 or 4 decades of basic mechanics and limiting rulesets have obviously left us dissatisfied. Why are we trying to find a way to legitimise these artificial rules through artificial narrative or worse, semiotics? <br /><br />I ask because I truly, deeply hope that you've felt, at least once in your life, so overwhelmingly <i>human</i> that you know you're alive. I'm not talking about some junkie's adrenaline rush, and this is probably one of those things that you'd take a skeptical stance towards until you've felt firsthand, but the feeling is real. It's neither rare nor associated with life-altering experiences but it may require one to tune in in order to appreciate. There's no doubt that true art makes you feel this way. Do you think a videogame, crafted for the sole purpose of making money and helping you get your jollies <i>deserves</i> a greater deal of respect than what we give it today? Because as far as videogames and the utilisation of their inherent attributes go, Tetris is probably king. I don't recall narrative or fiction being inherent to Chess. In fact, I see this whole discussion as people trying to break free from the shackles of videogames and what videogames connotate. It seems like we're on the verge of moving into something incredibly more fulfilling and valuable. It would be something that we will remember and learn from, not something that we will be entertained by briefly. I think we all understand the value of a videogame - we wouldn't be here if we weren't enthusiasts but we also wouldn't be here if we didn't know there were more important things in life, or at least higher aspirations for the interactive medium.<br /><br />I apologise for the obtuseness, but when there's something of value out there, you'll just know. It won't be because it adheres to a marriage of form and content or other arbitrary boundaries. It will be because the creator has made an honest work that comes from inside him, has not misused the medium as a soapbox, and the work has resonated with you and the emotions you feel, as opposed to the ones you think about.Greynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-47500492808257217502009-06-14T07:50:00.523-07:002009-06-14T07:50:00.523-07:00@Hyde: I stopped by to ask the very same question....@Hyde: I stopped by to ask the very same question.<br /><br />@Iroquois Pliskin: Whatever happened to Versus CluClu Land?mtvernonhttp://mashedmarket.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-60291939970418149442009-05-27T02:34:48.532-07:002009-05-27T02:34:48.532-07:00whatever happened to Versus Clu Clu Land?whatever happened to Versus Clu Clu Land?Hydehttp://25timesasecond.tumblr.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-82197482507155017482009-05-18T12:09:00.000-07:002009-05-18T12:09:00.000-07:00It seems to me (as I've written elsewhere) that th...It seems to me (as I've written elsewhere) that the simple answer to "Are games art?" is: "Yes, but not as we knew it." The point is that whenever a new form is invented, the definition of "art" - which was only ever a post-hoc abstraction to describe the forms already known - has to be stretched to accommodate it. This happened with the novel, opera, cinema, etc etc...stevenhttp://stevenpoole.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-59978399834299389332009-04-28T05:58:00.000-07:002009-04-28T05:58:00.000-07:00(Jumping late into the discussion) @Iroquois Plisk...(Jumping late into the discussion) @Iroquois Pliskin in continuation to your example, would you say that if Flower would had lesser graphics (last gen or even before), it would also be completely different to you?Giladhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15232450193240721413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-81589946791204812252009-04-23T12:00:00.000-07:002009-04-23T12:00:00.000-07:00Perhaps a related topic you might pick up: if game...Perhaps a related topic you might pick up: if games are art, how might you curate a museum exhibit? Some preliminary thoughts posted <A HREF="http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/games/2009/04/23/how-to-curate-video-games-and-interactive-media/" REL="nofollow">on my blog</A>.Gene Koohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04247953545127522008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-13846855806110561162009-04-23T11:37:00.000-07:002009-04-23T11:37:00.000-07:00@simon: I certainly wouldn't want to defend biosho...@simon: I certainly wouldn't want to defend bioshock all across the board. I don't think it achieved a synthesis across the board, or that everything worked. I think the problems you mention are totally valid (in fact they're the centerpiece of Hocking's critique, which I pointed to).<br /><br />Oh, and I know you guys (or at least Ian) have a background in classical aesthetics and know that stuff well. All I meant to say is that Bogost has made a set of principled arguments as to why we should reject the framework of classical aesthetics and so would probably disagree with the "maximize formal affordances" view I front here. <br /><br />As for the semantic-freight issue (I'm stealing the terminology from Persuasive Games) I think it's pretty clear that the meaning of a game would totally change if you kept the mechanics intact but changed the representational elements. (like, take Flower and keep an identical set of mechanics but change the gust of wind into a stuka divebomber the flowers into Polish civilians and so on, this would be a different game.)Iroquois Pliskinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324582950813408440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-33137794737203302872009-04-23T10:15:00.000-07:002009-04-23T10:15:00.000-07:00I just realized we could pretty easily test your s...I just realized we could pretty easily test your statement about The Marriage by mocking it up in black and white in Processing, sitting people down to play it, and then asking them what they thought was going on. It's essentially what a lot of people in my interactive design class did when they prototyped a microworld with no narrative information and then explained what it meant. <br /><br />Because what we're really talking about there strikes right through to the essence of the argument against authorial intent. Summer projects!Simon Ferrarihttp://chungking.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-5799641918036240832009-04-23T09:38:00.000-07:002009-04-23T09:38:00.000-07:00@IP: Thinking more on my dislike for Bioshock, I r...@IP: Thinking more on my dislike for Bioshock, I realize that I haven't thought enough about how incredible the transformation into a Big Daddy is at the end of the game, or how it changes everything that I'd seen and done throughout the course of the experience.<br /><br />If you know of anybody's articles or blogposts on this subject... please link!Simon Ferrarihttp://chungking.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-11778865039943311442009-04-23T07:49:00.000-07:002009-04-23T07:49:00.000-07:00@ IP:
Maybe because the text snippets in Braid a...@ IP: <br /><br />Maybe because the text snippets in Braid actually have something to do with the mechanics? In any case, I think diaries are slightly more common than audio logs.<br /><br />Were the audio logs about Rapture's descent into madness actually indicative of your mental state or actions in the game? The decision to harvest Little Sisters or not wasn't about power corrupting. It was about choosing from the beginning whether you were going to be a dick or a saint. Were you ever actually hurting for ADAM? They make the choice too easy for you.<br /><br />The domination problem you've mentioned before hits games like Bioshock harder, for me, than in god games. This game (on hard) was a series of:<br /><br />1) Run into a room<br />2) Hack everything<br />3) Shooting everything<br />4) Listen to audiologs<br />5) Solve simple physics puzzles with a Gravity Gun derivative<br /><br />Anyhow, as to your combined reply to myself and Ian... you're talking to two other people with a background in classical philosophy and aesthetics (I only read Latin, but Ian can slang some bad-ass Greek). I don't know if falling back on our beloved Germans and Greeks is enough to answer the problem posed by postmodern (or in Bogost's case, unit operational) critiques of these top-down formalizations.<br /><br />The idea that mechanics don't carry semantic freight has been contested repeatedly. See Janet Murray versus Espen Aarseth on Tetris. See Braid (apparently the text was added to the game as an afterthought... somebody call me on that if it's not true).<br /><br />In general we're actually wholly in agreement, but I'm always questioning myself about being too naive. To be honest, I see any thought that goes into making a game as more valuable than not thinking at all.Simon Ferrarihttp://chungking.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-88005771096322288282009-04-22T22:32:00.000-07:002009-04-22T22:32:00.000-07:00@andrewdoull: hey that's a good post you have the...@andrewdoull: hey that's a good post you have there. I'm on board with the prototype theory on the concept-use front but I have some serious reservations about using Wittgenstein to fund a empirically-based theory of concept formation. When it comes to the games-as-art debate tho we are in fundamental agreement! <br /><br />@tom armitage: thanks for pointing out the typo there. This is what I get for editing posts into the wee hours. Typos aside I meant to highlight the idea that Films and comic books share similar formal properties (use of framing, in particular) however, I think your point that the juxtaposition of mechanics and images/words is essential to games as a medium is right on. <br /><br />@deemer: as I indicated in <A HREF="http://versusclucluland.blogspot.com/2008/09/how-game-design-is-like-architecture.html" REL="nofollow">a previous post</A>, I think that game design has the artisan flavor you mention. Moreso than some other arts, games have this functional aim, which is to craft a "fun" experience. However, I don't think this prevents a game designer from trying to achieve an artistic vision within these constraints.<br /><br />@M.Asheley: hey thanks for the thoughtful comment. while I agree with the spirit of your point here, I wouldn't want to say that any one art form is "more true to reality" than another. I think each art form has its own set of tools for expressing thought and emotion, and I don't think any one set of formal capacities is superior to another. <br /><br />@ianbogost: Holy Crap! It's Ian Bogost! Thanks for stopping by. Here's wot I think<br /><br />1) I don't think the "maximize formal affordances" imperative, which I lay out here, is oriented towards legitimacy per se so much as it's oriented towards goodness. I know this sounds hopelessly retrograde and maybe Platonic but I come from a philosophical aesthetics background. My view is that a game that maximized these affordances would be excellent, in itself, regardless of whether it achieved any Citizen-Kane style cultural recognition. <br /><br />2) this is not unique to cinema. You could look to the use of terza rima in Dante's Divine Comedy or the use of the free indirect style in the novel, which both achieve the kind of form-content synthesis I point to here. <br /><br />3) As a Hegelian, i should be more wary of defending the form-content distinction, but here goes: generally speaking I don't think game mechanics or rules bear any semantic freight , taken is isolation. My idea is that they mediate the meaning of the fictional/representational elements, and that is why I think they are formal rather than substantial. (like, you remove the colors and the title from Rod Humble's "the marriage" it no longer <I>means</I> the same thing.)<br /><br />4) no, the form/content (or image-narrative) distinction is not unique to cinema-- I don't think it's a uniquely cinematic phenomenon. As I said above, you could draw a similar analogy to games by thinking of the juxtaposition of meter and imagery in poetry. <br /><br />@charles: I knew you would object to the distinctions I'm drawing here, you incorrigible formalist! I deliberately avoided using "narrative," (opting for the more neutral "fiction") because I didn't want to prejudge the aesthetic issue in favor of the linear, character-based story. <br /><br />I wanted to leave the nature of the rules open; all I care about is that the fiction complement the rules and mechanics, whatever they might be. <br /><br />@simon: like I say a above, I don't intend the Citizen-Kane analogy to favor any one style of filmmaking (or game-making); all I care about is the <I>interplay</I> between the game mechanics and the fiction. Even if the delivery of the narrative in bioshock is clumsy/implausible at points, I have to say that it sought to achieve a kind of tight coupling you point to. (how are text snippets between levels in Braid any more "natural" than audio logs?)<br /><br />@nels: You're totally right. I don't think that practicing artists waste much time trying to make 'art." I think they're mostly consumed with thinking about the micro-level concerns: what "works," what doesn't "work."<br /><br />Also, i deliberated about exploiting the "braid" pun but decided against it.Iroquois Pliskinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324582950813408440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-84415747058224175882009-04-22T13:34:00.000-07:002009-04-22T13:34:00.000-07:00Oh, I just saw somebody already linked Jenkins in ...Oh, I just saw somebody already linked Jenkins in the comments section of IP's old post on the subject, and then everybody promptly ignored it and kept on commenting.<br /><br />Long form isn't dead, y'all.Simon Ferrarihttp://chungking.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-55070245586312541292009-04-22T13:32:00.000-07:002009-04-22T13:32:00.000-07:00@ games and architecture:
Nobody likes to read He...@ games and architecture:<br /><br />Nobody likes to read Henry Jenkins? "Game Design as Narrative Architecture" is an oldie but a goodie.<br /><br />Celia Pearce also writes about it in connection to the Uru Diaspora and her experience transitioning from working as an attraction designer for Disney to game design.Simon Ferrarihttp://chungking.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com