tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post1338438414869834062..comments2024-01-07T18:12:05.881-08:00Comments on Versus CluClu Land: Flower is Pretty, and Also Pretty RadIroquois Pliskinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14324582950813408440noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-26201354066344799572009-03-04T17:16:00.000-08:002009-03-04T17:16:00.000-08:00The idea that the game mechanics and structure are...The idea that the game mechanics and structure aren't totally original are true. Maybe the fault is holding up flower as a revolution, as opposed to just a refreshing departure. <BR/><BR/>However, to crosspost myself a bit (tacky?):<BR/><BR/>"Flower does something rare by giving players a rush [of flight] despite lacking a fail state... This is no small feat."<BR/><BR/>also,<BR/><BR/>"You finish feeling rejuvenated and at peace — just like the world you’ve traveled across to revive — in a way no other game this year is likely to match."<BR/><BR/>Isn't that enough to be really grateful for and excited about?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-57306647214696061452009-03-04T14:38:00.000-08:002009-03-04T14:38:00.000-08:00@danilo: this is a good point. the game's basic m...@danilo: this is a good point. the game's basic mechanics (the collection-to-unlock structure, the level-by-level progression) are pretty traditional. Maybe this is all she meant-- these specific elements undermined the experience and made it feel too artificial and gamey, got in the way of the serenity and whatnot. <BR/><BR/>There was this overall feel I got from the articles, though-- she thought that presence of any game mechanics at all disqualified the game as a piece of art. To which I would say: well, it depends what you do with the mechanics. that's where the art is. <BR/><BR/>@charles: like I said to Danilo, there's no denying that the mechanics in flower are very standard fare. (except for the lack of any punitive element, which isn't unique but is important.) It's not a work of staggering mechanical genius by any stretch.<BR/><BR/>But again, I didn't really feel disappointed by this. I really do see this as a game with modest ambitions and I think it achieved them very well. And again, the genius isn't just the scheme: it's the way the control scheme and the audiovisual aesthetic <I>complement</I> each other. I think this is what people have been responding to.Iroquois Pliskinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324582950813408440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-16666018576804006402009-03-04T11:34:00.000-08:002009-03-04T11:34:00.000-08:00I have to agree with Danilo here. The thing that a...I have to agree with Danilo here. The thing that annoyed me when playing Flower was that it was billed as some new experience, when in fact the underlying structure was incredibly traditional ("You mean I light this thing to open a path to this other place where I can light other things to open new paths? Genius!"). <BR/><BR/>The only thing that was really clever about Flower was the control scheme, but if I'm never asked to do anything interesting with a control scheme, is it really worth it?<BR/><BR/>Thatgamecompany has some really talented folks, but sometimes I get the feeling they're trying to break the rules without knowing them really well in the first place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-6297175254762140422009-03-04T09:43:00.000-08:002009-03-04T09:43:00.000-08:00I agree with most of what you say, and the way you...I agree with most of what you say, and the way you say it, but i still have something to comment. <BR/><BR/>"“design principles, not transcendental philosophical threads, not transporting narrative elegance” -- but this seems really wrongheaded to me. It implies a gulf: game design on one side, profound art on the other."<BR/><BR/>I see where you're getting at but I think there's another layer of interpretation available here. Players were shouting the way that Flowers was a Zen game, a new experience that raised the media qualities and etc, yet the game had just a different dressing, with de same old principles. Maybe the old ones were transcendental philosophical threads, but then why Flowers is the avant-garde ad the others not?<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I’m probably just nitpicking. Great text and great blog.Danilohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17325167354714052957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-40520490306372533872009-03-04T01:01:00.000-08:002009-03-04T01:01:00.000-08:00@laz: You gots to play it! What else are you doin...@laz: You gots to play it! What else are you doing with that PlayStation anyways. And it's a pretty good game. Very swooshy.Iroquois Pliskinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324582950813408440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-50224119505388237622009-03-03T19:28:00.000-08:002009-03-03T19:28:00.000-08:00Hmmm I'm kind of curious to try flower. I want to...Hmmm I'm kind of curious to try flower. I want to be the wind! On the other hand, I tend to have a kneejerk hate reaction to pixar movies.<BR/><BR/>Are there any homophones of wind in english? I can't think of any.chade fallstarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17600485457997218039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-51977977310630108182009-03-03T19:01:00.000-08:002009-03-03T19:01:00.000-08:00Yea, I probably linked the MDA thing before. I'll ...Yea, I probably linked the MDA thing before. I'll try my best to avoiding trumpeting it again, but I guarantee nothing ;)Nels Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06484436433023780229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-11714288154080661442009-03-03T17:51:00.000-08:002009-03-03T17:51:00.000-08:00@lbeez: (can I call you lbeez? I suppose I alrea...@lbeez: (can I call you lbeez? I suppose I already have.) Dude, don't sleep on flower. It's a good game. I can almost guarantee that your experience of the game will be noncontroversial. <BR/><BR/>At any rate, despite the differences I think Leigh and I basically agree about what flower <I>is</I>; we just disagree some about what it tries to be. <BR/><BR/>@nels: yeah I kind of felt the same way, though like you, I felt some of the adulation was a bit overlyrical. <BR/><BR/>And I have checked out the MDA framework before (was it you who led me to it?); it's a bit formal but I think I agree with its overall approach. I like the way it links mechanics and aesthetic experience together. (This is what bothered me most about the Alexander piece, really, this idea that game design and aesthetic experience stand opposed to each other.) <BR/><BR/>@mkrpata: Well, to be honest I think your pixar films are more sophisticated than flower. Like flower they tend to be really simple in their basic themes-- but I have to say that Pixar movies are usually pretty subtle in the way they go about dealing with emotion.<BR/><BR/>At any rate, I don't think flower is emotionally sophisticated by any stretch. It's harmonious but uncomplicated, which is fine for what it sets out to do.Iroquois Pliskinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14324582950813408440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-59297361290331640192009-03-03T12:29:00.000-08:002009-03-03T12:29:00.000-08:00I've seen that N'Gai quote referenced in a couple ...I've seen that N'Gai quote referenced in a couple of places, but I haven't read the original, so I'm not sure: Is it saying that Flower <EM>is</EM> emotionally sophisticated, or that Pixar films <EM>aren't</EM>? <BR/><BR/>Or that they're both <EM>kind of</EM> emotionally sophisticated?Mitch Krpatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15987162934932391765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-11809996314076396892009-03-03T07:34:00.000-08:002009-03-03T07:34:00.000-08:00That's what really bothered me about what Leigh ha...That's what really bothered me about what Leigh had to say too- it felt like she was accusing people of somehow being dishonest about what they were experiencing. While it's certainly possible that some folks are perhaps waxing a bit too lyrical, I just don't understand how she can really hold up the claim "All your love will not imbue Flower with traits it doesn't possess."<BR/><BR/>What impact Flower did or didn't have on a player can only be determined by them and unless people are making claims truly outrageous or objectively false, it just seems fundamentally wrong to say what someone else experienced wasn't real.<BR/><BR/>And god damn, I wish I could achieve the kind of clarity you demonstrate here. Brilliant calling out of aesthetic beauty via design. If you haven't read the <A HREF="http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/~hunicke/MDA.pdf" REL="nofollow">MDA Framework</A> paper, I'd suggest it, since it's saying something quite similar.Nels Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06484436433023780229noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7344068351653946740.post-41992420831168359342009-03-03T06:27:00.000-08:002009-03-03T06:27:00.000-08:00I haven't played the game yet and methinks I'll av...I haven't played the game yet and methinks I'll avoid it for a while. People seem to get very hostile over the subject of being wind. It's interesting that the issue you take with Alexander is what the purpose of the game is, as opposed to execution or aesthetics. I made the same joke with 8bithack on Twitter...it's funny how much we argue over seemingly non-controversial games. Titles that have such bold topics as being about sadness, relaxation or even something like exercise generate more arguments than any shooter or RTS.<BR/><BR/>I suppose it's a sign that the game is doing something new for all of us.Kirk Battlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16612840105075834275noreply@blogger.com